Episode 1 – An Archaeological Dig at Shuter’s Hill

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  An Archaeological Dig at Shuter's Hill

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Special Guest

Show Transcription

David: [00:00:04] Hi, I’m David Allen Lambert and I’m here with Terri O’Connell, and we are your Virtual Historians. Now Virtual Historians is a new way of looking at American or World History. We’re going to bring it to you on a different way. Forensically looking at things with archeology, looking at things with a different set of eyes.

[00:00:29] Yes, virtual history is a different way of approaching history and in a world where we don’t get to travel, often, as much as we like to, we’re going to bring you places and meet with people that are bringing history in a whole different way. We’re really excited to bring this, and I hope you stay tuned for our exciting virtual historian travels that we’re going to take you on every month.

[00:00:54] So we thought we’d give you a little bit of our history and a little background, and I’m going to let ladies go first. So, I’ll let Terri tell you a little bit about her background in the history field, in, and of course, with what she’s been doing. 

[00:01:07] Terri: [00:01:07] That’s a big one because I have no history background besides my family history.

[00:01:13] Um, but as a child, I loved history. Is probably my favorite class and I went to a small private school, so we really didn’t have History, like probably most schools had history. It was usually the end of the year. And you had to get in and everything that you were supposed to learn all year. Um, but I loved being able to travel and see these things.

[00:01:31] And we were avid travelers. As a family, we did RV vacations a lot and would go and see all these cool things. And the one thing I always wanted to do was go East and see the Declaration of Independence, Liberty Bell, those kinds of things. And they never hit our vacation. 

[00:01:49] Never! Did it as an adult, but that’s okay.

[00:01:53] Um, as an adult though, I started reading a book, um, The things you didn’t know about history that they didn’t teach you in school, which I thought was just the coolest thing ever. And it was just a book that I picked up probably every day and read little snippets of it, um, to learn more. 

[00:02:12] So I’m okay. I guess it’s self-taught historian, you know, google books, whatever.

[00:02:18] David: [00:02:18] It’s probably what a lot of our viewers actually are, you may not have a history degree. Now for myself. My degree is in history, but I’m a genealogist. I work as the Chief Genealogist for the New England Historic Genealogical Society in Boston. But the spin that we’re going to put on Virtual Historians it won’t really be genealogy were it will actually be history.

[00:02:37] So we’re going to be talking to people that have a really extensive degree in history, or they may just have a hobby of history. Maybe they found a cemetery in their backyard, and they’re actually doing some investigation with a college or with ground penetrating radar, or maybe they’re an archeologist that’s found a pirate ship and they’re doing DNA analysis of the bones that were found. There’s all sorts of avenues to proceed. I’ve always been interested in history since I was digging old bottles in my backyard. I started doing genealogy were brought on the same time when an old tin type photograph fell out of a book, and I asked my grandmother who is this?

[00:03:14] And she told me, that’s her dad. The idea, at a seven your old age, that my grandmother could have a living parent perplexed me. Of course he had passed away, but she told me that he was on a whaling ship. And now I wanted to know everything that was about whaling ships. I wanted to go and see the Charles W. Morgan down at the Mystic Seaport and be on a whaling ship. That wasn’t his, but for me it became more of a way to experience history and with virtual history, one of the things that we’re going to try to bring you is besides things that we can direct you to or bring in guests will actually tell you about exciting things in history.

[00:03:52] We’re going to actually send you links that will allow you to see things that are virtual. May it be with an Oculus or any other VR headset, or maybe even just going to a website. We hope that we can bring you a little closer to the past, from the comfort of your own home.

[00:04:14] We’re really excited today to have a colleague and a good friend of ours, Shannon Combs – Bennett. Who’s going to talk about a really exciting, uh, paper she wrote as well as the discovery. We always think of history and family kind of melded together. How about tossing archeology into the mix? Shannon Combs – Bennet has a QG and professional genealogy. She is a graduate from Northern Virginia, uh, and she is graduated the Boston University program on certificate program from ProGen. In 2016, she was awarded the PLCGS in American Studies from the National Institute for Genealogical Studies. And she is recognized as a QGA a Qualified Genealogist throughout the register of Qualified Genealogist in the United Kingdom for completing her post graduate diploma in Genealogical, Heraldic, and Paleographic Studies. Without further ado. Shannon, thank you so much for coming in and joining us today.

[00:05:17]Shannon: [00:05:17] Not a problem. Glad to be here. 

[00:05:19] David: [00:05:19] So I have been to Alexander, Virginia a number of times, and I’ve been to the Masonic, um, Washington monument there, and I’ve seen Fort Ellsworth.

[00:05:32] I knew that there was a Fort there, but I never knew there was a plantation. So what can you tell us about what you discovered? 

Shannon: [00:05:39] Sure. So there has been a, some sort of building there for a very long time. Unfortunately it burned down in the early 19 hundreds. So a lot of newer residents, uh, don’t know about it or what exactly took place on top of this Hill.

[00:05:57] And you have to realize in the colonial era that was outside of town, that was country for Alexandria. Um, Shuter’s Hill Plantation is what it was called. That is Shuter’s Hill that the George Washington Masonic Temple is at the base of, um, if you are familiar with the Alexandria area or you’ve gone through it on the Metro, that’s the King street and Metro station.

[00:06:20] If you look off to the side, you’ll see the great big monument standing there in the background. Um, now a part of Alexandria proper it’s slowly grown up that way. Uh, Shuter’s Hill was started in the late 1780s by an Alexandrian merchant named John Miller. Now, unfortunately for Mr. Miller. He died the week he was supposed to move into the plantation.

David: [00:06:49] Oh, that’s a little unfortunate. 

Shannon: [00:06:50] Yeah. So he never actually got to live in it. Uh, it was supposed to be there’s, there’s only one picture of it. So in existence, uh, but from all, um, Everything has been written about it described about it and that type of thing. It was a very nice colonial style, uh, Manor house on top of the Hill.

[00:07:16] Uh, the person who bought it from the Miller estate was Ludlow Lee of the Stafford County Lee’s here in Virginia. So a relative of Robert E. Lee, Lighthorse Henry Lee, all of those people. Ludlow was a member of the House of Burgess in Virginia, also. Um, and he and his wife lived there for about 10 years until he sold it to the Dulanys and the Dulany family were the ones who were in possession of it until it was finally destroyed, so well over a century. And that’s really what my project concentrated on. I basically did a case study of now missing a building:

• Who lived there

• When did they live there?

• What did they do?

That type of thing all throughout the 1800s. That was really my focus. Um, but what’s neat is, we’ll kind of get to this also. And if I can find the pictures here in a minute, I’ve been poking around my computer trying to bring these up. Um, they do, um, the Alexandria Archeology Department, which is based in what’s called the Torpedo Factory down on the Potomac River off of King street. It’s an old torpedo factory. Um, they do family digs from May until October on Saturdays. You have to sign up it’s $25 to do it. And it’s like within 24 to 48 hours of them opening up the dates, they usually sell out. That’s how popular it is.

David: [00:08:51] That’s excellent. 

Shannon: [00:08:53] Yeah, and they have the local archeologists come out and they’re interns and they do a nice presentation on what archeology is, what the history they know about the plantation. And then you get to go help with the dig and for the kids it’s basically here’s the bucket of dirt. What did in the sifter, (makes sifting noise) 

David: [00:09:15] they have my daughter do a colonial Williamsburg. They had kids dig and they would do, we’re doing a backfield house and going through the dirt, which still had artifacts. 

Shannon: [00:09:23] Okay. Right. I mean, what kid doesn’t want to dig in the dirt? I’m fine. 

David: [00:09:28] This kid still wants to do it. 

Shannon: [00:09:31] So we took my father with us. And at that time he was 79, maybe 78, 79. So it was me, my husband and my two children. And we were there for two hours and found uh pieces of pottery. We found, um, one of the kids found an Arrowhead because they didn’t know that there was, was Indian and native American activity there. Excellent. Uh, they found glass bottles, shards. We found beads and buttons and some Civil War, um, items as well, because like you said, Dave, during the Civil War, Shuter’s Hill is like the highest point within square miles. I mean, a very long way. So from the top of this Hill, you could see down the Potomac river, you could see back into Virginia, you could see Washington DC, you can see across to Maryland.

[00:10:26] Um, it’s a wonderful vantage point. So as soon as Virginia seceded from the union. Troops, what came across the river. Straight into Alexandria, seized Alexandria. So it was a siege town, the entire war, and they set up for Elwood on the base. And the one picture we have of the plantation house is from the civil war era when they were documenting the troops.

[00:10:52] David: [00:10:52] And it was, was that used as Barrack, Shannon? Uh, or what did they use the buildings for? You think when the Fort was there? 

[00:11:00] Shannon: [00:11:00] So, um, when Virginia seceded, the Dulany’s left, they basically abandoned the house and went to, they had several family homes and plantations around Virginia. Um, they went at that time, they kind of split, some of them went to Fauquier County. Some went up to Loudon County and they abandoned the building during that time. What we know from records is that it was used as a headquarters building. Um, and, uh makeshift, you know, hospital, that type of thing. And then they had, uh, tents and they built some barracks down around the fortifications for, uh, the troops.

[00:11:45] Um, there’s even a story from one of the newspaper clippings, uh, right after the Civil War. And it’s not necessarily proven to be true, but you can’t prove that it’s not. Okay. So it was a gentleman talking in the Alexandria Gazette about the horrible shape of the Shuter’s Hill Plantation. Um, because they had destroyed it.

[00:12:13] It had a huge. Uh, orchard have several different types of fruits and they’ve all been clear cut and the crops are gone and the buildings, and then the report was that they had taken the grave slabs over the tombs for the Lee family and had built some of the buildings and the bakery out of it because they needed stones for the ovens.

[00:12:40] The graves are gone. They think they know where they are, but there’s no markers, no nothing there. And from the newspapers, we can tell you exactly who was buried at the plantation because they’re all there.

David: [00:12:54] Was it a crept sort of a setup or like on chapel or was it on the property? 

Shannon: [00:12:59] It was on the property.

[00:13:00] They, as is tradition in most Virginia, uh, area farms. You were buried on the property. Very few people were actually buried at church for a long time. It was just, you know, the, the tradition for in this area. Um, and they were, so if you’re familiar with Williamsburg, you know how they have basically, there’s the four sides with the slab on top common.

David: [00:13:21] Exactly. 

Shannon: [00:13:22] It’s that type. 

David: [00:13:24] So that’s, that’s amazing. So their remains may still be there. 

Shannon: [00:13:28] Right. But, but where, and the thing is, what’s interesting about it is, um, the reason that George Washington Masonic temple is there. Um, Benjamin Dulany was one of the founders of the Masonic Lodge in Alexandria. He was a good friend of George Washington.

[00:13:47] His wife, Eliza French was actually a ward of George Washington. Now there’s some debate if it was George Washington or George Mason, but,

1. George Washington gave her away at her wedding and
2. the white horse that George Washington rode during the revolution, that was the Dulany’s horse. It was a present to him.

David: [00:14:09] From the plantation.

Shannon: [00:14:10] Um, well from the Dulany’s themselves. Whether or not it came from the, that estate, we don’t know, but there’s definitely a connection there with the Dulany’s and the French family. Um, one of the reasons why the Masonic Lodge is there is that the city of Alexandria since the home is now destroyed. All the outbuildings are destroyed. It was slowly encroaching up the Hill and they wanted, the Masonic Lodge wanted to preserve it. So with when you’re on top of the Hill, you can see older style town homes and single family homes on the side of the Hill, but the top of the Hill and where the lodge is now, is preserved, because they purchased all that land.

David: [00:14:57] That’s excellent. You know, I know it has a really commanding view. And I remember looking down, um, from the top of the monument and you could actually see the star fort, design of the Fort. Yeah. That’s pretty amazing. Yeah. Did you have some images that you said that from your report? 

Shannon: [00:15:16] I do. So let me, I will pause and try to get this to come up for a second.

[00:15:24] Okay. All right. From all right, let’s see here. Um,

Terri: [00:15:33] while you look, I just want to say, I feel like I need to go back to one Virginia, but to Alexandria. 

[00:15:40] Shannon: [00:15:40] Oh, yeah. 

[00:15:41] David: [00:15:41] I’ve only been there once and old town all the time. When I love old town, Alexandria. 

Terri: [00:15:48] I was only there once and it was taking my son to college and we stayed there because he wanted to go look at Georgetown and I got lost every night coming back in.

David: [00:15:59] Oh, there we go.

Shannon: [00:16:00] Sorry. All right. So let’s see here I am setting. Why are you not popping? Oh, well, so we’re going to have to do this from memory because I am trying to get my, uh, Presenter view to come up cause I have a whole bunch of notes and I’m petrified of not oops, wrong screen of not having my notes in case I get a date wrong. It’s one of those things. Right? Okay. So this is actually, um, Shuter’s Hill and it spelled several different ways that way with a double T or even with a double o, like a shooter. Um, and they think it’s named, this is still hypothetical, but I was speaking with the Archeology Department, Alexandria. Um, I think it’s named after Shuter’s Hill in London.

[00:16:48] So you can look that up and read all about it, but there’s, there’s also a story about maybe there was a Shuter family that lived at the base of the Hill. No, one’s really quite too sure why there’s a whole bunch of different speculation, but this drawing is from the Civil War. So you can see the flag at the top and all the tents for the union army 

David: [00:17:06] Oh yeah, all the A frame.

Shannon: [00:17:07] Yeah. Okay. Um, The other thing, like I said is it’s, you know, it’s on a bluff where you can see all the way across. It is a registered archeological site with the Virginia Department of Historic Resources. So you can go out to that website and read the archeology report and all the historical data on it.

[00:17:27] Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, a very impressive place. So let’s see here, this, for those of you who aren’t familiar. Uh, let’s see here. I got to go out to the next page. Next page. There we go. Uh, so on the left-hand side is the Masonic temple, and this is from the top of the Hill looking down. I took this picture on that, and then you can see on the right, if you do, if you got to Google images, you’ll see this because this is what it looks like.

[00:17:56] You got the parking lot where you parked to go in the temple and literally just up, it’s kind of a steep Hill, but up the, still on the, up the Hill, it flattens off the top is, uh, the archeological site that they’ve been digging. They know that’s part of the frame and they, they have little pits at various places, um, which you can’t see it’s it’s off the screen a little bit to the left would be the Ellwood trenches.

David: [00:18:22] That’s really exciting. I mean, I know that you have to do a lot of test pits on a large parcel like that, but it’s nice to know that they are started. How many years have they been digging in there now? Shannon? 

Shannon: [00:18:32] Since the mid nineties. 

David: [00:18:34] Wow. That’s excellent. So they marked off where most of the buildings are that they found foundations and 

Shannon: [00:18:41] yeah, and there’s, uh, artifacts, the archeology department and the Torpedo Factory is a little museum. You can go in there and look at what they’ve had, but they’ve found. And then in the Masonic Temple is also another museum with archeological dig stuff, bits and pieces that anybody it’s a public building, anyone can go in and see it. Okay. So next, so this is kind of what I was talking about, how you can see so far.

[00:19:13] So Shuter’s HIll down there towards the bottom. You could actually see a little like, house drawing right above the name, Alexandria on the map that that arrow is pointing to. Okay. So that’s the home and the plantation. Charlestown. That’s Charlestown, West Virginia. Okay. So you can see kind of how close everything and then there’s Baltimore, Washington, DC, Alexandria, the Potomac River.

[00:19:38] So, so, Oh, excuse me. So, unfortunately, uh, Virginia, as with many Southern States has suffered a lot of record destruction. So when you’re piecing together house and land histories or doing something like this, um, for yourself, Not just being, because it’s a really cool place. And I went and did an archeological dig there and then I had to know more

David: [00:20:07] and it doesn’t matter if it’s with a shovel. 

Shannon: [00:20:11] I went there with my kids and I’m like, huh, I wonder what else I could find out. And then it started down that rabbit hole. I’m sure everybody has done that. Right. So we have to rely on maps. And other, I guess, unique or unusual records to try to piece together the house and the family history, you know, who lived there, when did they live there?

[00:20:32] Um, and then on top of it, there have been nearly half a dozen boundary changes since it was built. Because it was part of a colony and then it was part of a state and it was part of the DIstrict of Columbia and it was part of Virginia again. And sometimes it’s part of Alexandra. It’s part of Alexandria County sometimes it’s best.

[00:20:56] So, yeah. So you’re running around, not only at the Library of Virginia, but you’re running around to all the different local places trying to find which jurisdiction holds which paperwork. Right. So, yay. 

David: [00:21:11] That’s excellent. I love that bird’s eye view though. That’s really,

Shannon: [00:21:16] and this is, um, you guys could go out and look at this. This is from the Library of Congress and it’s titled District Columbia and the Seat of War on the Potomac. So you can very easily go out there and find it. Um, so what else about this? I, I think that’s about it. Um, Oh, the one thing that was. That was problematic. Is there something in Virginia called tobacco lists where you can find all sorts of information about communities and farms?

[00:21:42] Well, they never grew tobacco at Shuter’s Hill, so there’s no tobacco list. 

David: [00:21:48] Now do they have any, uh, inventories or knowledge of how many enslaved individuals may have? 

Shannon: [00:21:54] Okay. Yeah. So give me a minute. We’re getting to that. I actually have some good data on that. Um, so this is another one. This is a, uh, the Alexandria from 1798 and at the top of it, which I’ve, uh, enlarged for you is the plantation again.

[00:22:11] And it’s known on this map is Mr. Lee’s home. So we know that in 1798, obviously he’s still living there. 

David: [00:22:19] Now do you think that those marks are the trees? Are they like the orchards? 

Shannon: [00:22:24] I’m not too sure if it would be the trees. Cause they grew crops some crops there too, but it’s definitely showing, you know, that they’re farming there.

[00:22:31] That’s what I take it. And you can sort of see here where it’s a two-story house with, with wings, very colonial design, even in that little bitty drawing that they have there. 

David: [00:22:42] Yeah. Yeah. And two chimneys on either end of the central building. That’s pretty nice. 

Shannon: [00:22:47] Um, so we do know that when Benjamins Dulany purchased Shuter’s Hill, uh, the mansion with several different tracks of land.

[00:22:56] So Benjamin not only bought that, but he then expanded on the land that came with the mansion. He purchased it on June 6, 1799 for 5,000 pounds. And that’s just about a hundred thousand dollars today. Okay. Yeah. Uh, yeah, especially, you know, in Alexandra you have multimillion dollar houses now fixer uppers. 

David: [00:23:20] Cost of a couple of parking spots now in Alexandria.

Shannon: [00:23:23] Yeah. Yeah. Um, so he purchased in 1799. So the year after this was map was created, Um, all of the original land owned by John Mills, the merchant who, uh, who built it plus 20 acres and one Rood and 36 purchase of land from, uh, John West and an additional 10 acres of land, plus all the buildings ways and waters from Henry Lee and his wife. Ann. So there were several leads living on that help, but he basically bought the whole Hill. That’s amazing. Yeah. All right. So next great record. The insurance, for the house, but what’s even better is at the bottom of the insurance record is the plot. So the house, the footing of the house, and two out buildings. 

David: [00:24:20] I see that piazza and everything right in front of it.

Shannon: [00:24:24] These records, you can find them from the Library of Virginia digital collections. And this is the Mutual Assurance Society Insurance Records. And homes in, Virginia homes and businesses were insured frequently by the Society. Um, and these were the laundry and the garden were insured for $10, which is about $300 today.

[00:24:50] So woo. But these are the first extent documents there are, that shows the layout of the, the estate. 

David: [00:25:01] Now the central building that’s shown on the left there. Do they know where that may have been? Or is that where they’re digging now, Shannon? 

Shannon: [00:25:09] Yes, they’ve actually, because this house also burned and then they built a second house.

[00:25:15] So they know where the two foundations are because they took one. And then the second one’s kind of catty corner to it. So they’re built over top of each other, but here’s a, you can see that it’s blown up here. You’ve got the laundry and the Gardener’s house. They don’t know exactly where they are, but they have the feeling that they are off the two front wings a little bit.

[00:25:36] So it was, it had a circular drive that you could go up to. And then a, B and C. So the two wings were single story and A was a two-story wooden house. 

David: [00:25:48] That’s amazing. Yeah, 54 by 26 feet. 

Shannon: [00:25:53] Oh, go back, go back, go back. There we go. Yeah. So it’s yeah, 54 by 26 is A, and then B over here on the North side of the building is 31 by 30.

[00:26:06] And the other side is 30 by 22 and each of the laundry and the Gardener’s house, we’re both 16 by 16. So pretty cool. All right. But because I’m a genealogist, I also wanted to know, and this is where we get also into the slave part of it at the enslaved people is I wanted to know who was there. Okay. So I know the owners, right?

[00:26:27] Sure. But who else is there? What else could we find out? So, first of all, there’s Benjamin. There he is Benjamin Dulany, Benjamin Tasker Dulany. Oh, sorry. Born in Annapolis about 1752. And he was the son of Daniel Dulany, the younger, who was a member of the Maryland Legislative Assembly and Rebecca Tasker and her father was Benjamin Tasker, who was the 21st Proprietor General, uh, Governor of Maryland.

[00:27:01] So he comes from some pretty, you know, background people. Pretty good background. Yeah. Um, and then, and then he married Elizabeth or Eliza French. And she was the daughter of Daniel French and Penelope Manley. And I couldn’t find any pictures of them. I’m still looking, there has to be a picture out there somewhere, right?

David: [00:27:22] That’s a good fill in though. Yeah, sure. 

Shannon: [00:27:26] Daniel and Penelope, they lived on Rose Hill plantation, which was about five miles South of Alexandria. Um, at 14, her father died, Eliza’s father died and she became a ward to George Washington / Mason, depending on which story you want to go with, there’s some debates still among some historians there.

[00:27:49] Um, Her mother obviously was still living, but, you know, colonial times they were still listed for those people who don’t know that, even if you had a mother listed, you were still a ward or an orphan, especially if you were an heiress and were at that time, she had a 20,000 pound inheritance. 

David: [00:28:09] That’s pretty good amount of money for that point in time.

Shannon: [00:28:11] Right? Well, we do know that George Washington was the manager of her money and that Dulany courted her at Mount Vernon. And then they were married on the 10th of February in 1773. So it’s still a while yet before they move into Shuter’s Hill. So after they were married, they actually lived at this and you can go see this building as well.

[00:28:34] It is a museum and you can take tours. It’s 601 Duke street, and they had two homes until 1810 when they sold their townhouse and moved to the country. As you could say, um, let’s see here. So there’s also the view there of Alexandria and you can act, okay. So this sounds kind of weird, but for those of you, who’ve never been to Alexandria. Um, old town is very colonial. It’s, they’ve kept all the buildings. It’s, you know, it’s got cobbled streets and some places. And my husband and I went down there and we were able to, by looking at this picture, figure out where all the different works and cause some of these buildings are still standing that down there today.

[00:29:23] Sure. Yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty amazing to say the least. Um, okay, so let’s go back this way. So there’s a wonderful digital collection called the Slave Manumissions in Alexandria Land Records, 1790 to 1863. Um, it’s on a website, uh, for the, uh, the Alexandra Historical Society. They’ve kept it up. And basically they went through every single record they could find for Alexandria and made this database.

[00:29:56] David: [00:29:56] Oh, that’s tremendous. 

[00:29:58] Shannon: [00:29:58] So what I did is I went through with the nice little find feature that you can have on websites and put in Dulany or in all spellings thereof to see who I could find associated with the family. And these are the people I found who were owned by the Dulany family. So we now have names and you can see that a lot of them are by, um, but Benjamin or his son Benjamin, Jr.

[00:30:33] Um, but there’s no one after that. 

[00:30:37] David: [00:30:37] Never had any luck tracking any of them down descendants? 

[00:30:42] Shannon: [00:30:42] I have not because I have a feeling, a lot of them, um, left the state due to the laws. Um, but the other thing I have to say is this is just the Alexandria records. We do know that they, that their children lived in other counties.

[00:31:02] Sure. So, you know, only one of their children when Benjamin and Eliza passed would take possession of the home. The, the enslaved persons could have gone to other counties. So there may be more out there too, but at least we have a start of who was there. Um, and these are everyone who was freed. So if they weren’t freed, but if they were sold to another person or died, or, you know, just given to another family member, it wouldn’t have been in the manumission records because these are specifically records for enslaved persons who were freed and you can see in some cases how much they were freed for.

[00:31:44] Um, the ones that I find interesting are the ones that say a family member, you know, like, um, Hannah Webster purchased by father Jack daughter’s father purchased. Um, so there’s several there there’s, uh, Tyler Tila, Tyler. I’m not sure Charlotte and Patty wife, and two daughters purchased. So you get a sense of family.

David: [00:32:09] It really tugs at the heartstrings. Lucky we are, we’re doing our own genealogy. And with like, this is kind of the genealogy that came out of digging into some archeology. This is really an amazing amount of work. 

Shannon: [00:32:23] Right. 

[00:32:24] And the other thing is reconcile this as we find them. Cause these types of databases are.

[00:32:31] You can find them at a lot of different places across the South. And sometimes these a records that nobody would ever think to go look at or to find information in. And here you are putting it out there. And if somebody is looking and they have that brick wall, maybe this can help them go a little further, but I have.

[00:32:51] Yeah. And there’s another one that I have, but first, so, um, this, these pictures are in chronological order, if you can’t tell. So this is the, uh, the death of Elizabeth Dulany who died, um, at 67 years of age and she died in 1822. Now, have you ever had lunch at Gadsby’s Tavern, Dave? In Alexandria. 

David: [00:33:21] Yes, yes I have.

Shannon: [00:33:22] So Gadsby’s Tavern is where the auction for Shuter’s Hill happened when her, uh, debts couldn’t be paid by her kids and the story it was at that time known as City Hotel and Tavern, same building, different name.

[00:33:40] Um, so it’s according to the lore, what happened was her son, um, Bladen Dulany, okay, sued the estate, Virginia. They were sue happy. Okay. Transfer of records are amazing. And Bladen was like, I want my money and I want my money now. So his nephew, so a grandson of Benjamin and Eliza, Henry Rozier Dulany agreement with Bladen got some family members involved, basically paid off the uncle.

[00:34:17] And then with the backing of a lot of people went in and successfully bid on the auction and got the family property right back. Oh, cool. But that’s where, if you. So Terri, when you come to Alexandria, they dress in period clothes and serve you. 

[00:34:35] David: [00:34:35] Lots of fun.

[00:34:37]Shannon: [00:34:37] It’s an interesting little place. So just, just cause I’m, you know, that genealogical nuts.

[00:34:42] So this is how it’s going. So you skipped a generation there. Henry Rozier Dulaney was the grandson. So he’s now the owner. What’s important is his daughter, Rebecca Anne. She’s the one who owns it during the civil war. She marries Richard Henry Dulany, who is also the grandson of, so the great granddaughter and the grandson of Benjamin and Eliza get married, as you do.

[00:35:15] Virginia. Um, But the thing is Henry Richard, Henry Dulany. He doesn’t like Shuter’s Hill, so they don’t live there. So, this is when the record start to go a little bit at, in Alexandria. And when that, because of that, the first fire happens in 1842. And then the second fire happens in 1873. 

David: [00:35:42] So was it fire in 42? Took out the 18th century mansion house?

Shannon: [00:35:46] Most of it. Yeah. And then they had to start rebuilding it. So what we know is here’s the archeology that you’ve been waiting for. Okay. So this is what, um, so this is, what did I write this? When I do this research, I did this in 2017, 2018. So, and I’m pretty sure this information hasn’t changed.

[00:36:06] They may have filled in a little bit, um, This is essentially what they have. They know where the late 18th, early 19th century laundry is. They’ve been able to figure that out and then they know sort of where the 1850s main house should be. And then they have the footings of the 19th century outbuildings and the buildings of the, um, 19th century house that was built after the first fire.

David: [00:36:36] That’s amazing. 

Shannon: [00:36:38] Yeah, it’s um, it’s pretty interesting. And there are some, um, letters that are, um, out there from some of the grandchildren that are here living with some of the older, uh, people who were not at all happy about the state of the house and what they have to live in, compared to other places.

[00:37:02] Yeah, so it gets run down a little bit, so, okay. So moving forward in time, here’s another bird’s eye view of Alexandria 1863. And this is the one from the beginning. So you can see from the port and how, you know, it’s not that far outside of town, but it was far enough to be considered, you know, the country and then the town slowly built up around it.

[00:37:27] Um, Let’s see here, do you do? Oh, so, but the important thing is, and where I talked about Richard Dulany, right? So they lived at his father’s house and his father was the son of Benjamin and Eliza. And according to family lore, well born. Which is this house right here, um, which is also on the national register of historic places in Loudon County.

[00:37:56] It is supposed to be a replica of the house, at Shuter’s Hill. 

David: [00:38:00] Well, I could see how that could be with the chimneys and the Piazza and the, um, the two wings. That’s amazing.

Shannon: [00:38:08] Right. So, I mean, there’s, there’s nothing conclusive, but it seems to be, and it’s the running theory that Welbourne House. And like I said, just, just outside of Leesburg and Louden County, um, uh, which you can also go and tour 

David: [00:38:26] well, you know, I’m always in Williamsburg once a year. I have to take the side tripsor I’llthink there’s nothing in Virginia, but Williamsburg. 

Shannon: [00:38:32] There’s tons of stuff in Virginia. But yeah, so I, I love this because then you actually get a visual besides, you know, all the line drawings. And then this is the picture I was telling you about earlier, Dave, this is the one photograph of the house. 

[00:38:48] David: [00:38:48] Oh, interesting. 

Shannon: [00:38:50] Yeah. So like I said, while Henry, okay. Henry Rozier Dulaney. Um, at the beginning of the Civil War, he owned the house, but he passed away. So it was left to his daughter, Rebecca, uh, Rebecca and her husband. Um, no one lived on the property. Alexandria was a siege city. So as a Confederate sympathizers, they were not there.

[00:39:13] Um, and this was, uh, on May 24th, 1862, the day after Virginia seceded, the Union Troops, merchant Alexandria. And first thing they did was seize this Hill and you could see why. 

David: [00:39:28] Strategic

Shannon: [00:39:28] Excellent point. Right. So the archeologists at the, uh, Alexandria, um, Archeological Department, they have the original glass plate of this image and made a copy for me, but you can see, I mean, it’s blown up as best as it can, but you can see how they rebuilt it. Now has a tower off of one end, right? And it’s at least two stories going in two different directions. Now. 

David: [00:40:01] Do they think the white buildings adjacent to it are barracks? Because that’s what it looks like in the foreground. 

Shannon: [00:40:06] Yeah. They’re, they’re all the same. These were obviously after the 10th. So a more, um, permanent semi-permanent structures that were put up for the Fort afterwards.

David: [00:40:18] Sure.

Shannon: [00:40:19] But, yeah, that’s the only picture. And you can see, um, you, you could see like the little white dots on the Hill. So those were the orchards that were clear cut. 

David: [00:40:28]. Oh gosh. You know, what’s interesting on that structure, you can actually see like kind of a smaller square window in a higher level, and then a larger window down below.

[00:40:39] It’s almost like being in front layers, like lighting. 

Shannon: [00:40:42] Yeah, they also used it. Um, so some of those windows may I think, have been modified because sharp shooters and they use the Union Signal Corps, use that tower. 

David: [00:40:54] Oh, okay. That would make sense while you get the vantage point. This is really exciting, Shannon, thank you for sharing. And this is so much different than what you’re normally doing. You’re usually dealing with DNA. And so I guess, you know, we’ve learned so much about this. Why don’t we have our listeners learn a little bit about what you’re planning on doing. And I know that, can I say that I am honored, you know, that I will have a doctor very shortly in the near future.

[00:41:26]That’s near. So you want to tell us about what you’re doing with Strathclyde with that? 

Shannon: [00:41:31] Um, sure. So I am a first year PhD student at the University of Strathclyde in History with a Genealogical emphasis. 

David: [00:41:41] Wonderful. Yeah. 

Shannon: [00:41:43] It’s a lot, very many. Not really? No, you have the time. It’s not real. No, I’m teasing.

[00:41:50] Um, it’s going to be a lot of work I’m on the part-time program because, uh, for those of you who don’t know me, I still have two kids at home. And I also have, uh, my father who lives with me and I’m his primary care. So part time it’s a six year program, which compared to American schools. It’s awesome.

[00:42:10] Yeah. Um, if I was, we’re able to do the full-time program, which would be dedicating 60 hours a week to work, it would be only three years, but it’s worth it for me to, to stretch it out a little bit so that, you know, I can do other things. Cause that would also mean for the next three years. I wouldn’t be able to breathe, talk, write, lecture, 

David: [00:42:32] the breathing part, especially. Yeah. That’s great. No, do you have any books that you’re coming out with or most recently? 

Shannon: [00:42:41] Nothing new. Um, so a little over a year ago, uh, my good friend and colleague, uh, Brianne Kirkpatrick, we came out with a book, uh, The DNA Guide for Adoptees. 

David: [00:42:55] Okay. 

Shannon: [00:42:56] Um, which we now thinking back about, I probably shouldn’t have named it, but you know, there was some pressure from a publisher there.

[00:43:02] So, um, because it’s, well, it is geared towards people who are looking for unidentified family. You don’t have to be an adoptee to have an unknown family member. Um, so for those of you who don’t know Brianna, she is a Certified Genetic Counselor. We both did our undergraduate at Indiana University. She was two years behind me, which is the funny part. We didn’t know each other. When we were at school, we had, we had to go to GRIPP in Pittsburgh and sit next to each other in a lecture to, uh, to get to know each other.

Terri: [00:43:37] It sounds like it was a very fated meeting.

Shannon: [00:43:41] Yeah. So the, the interesting thing about the book is both she and I felt that there was a missing element to the books out there already for brick wall / DNA / finding family. Nobody talked about, yeah, you got the genealogy. Yeah, you got the research and methodology part. Yeah. Blah, blah. You got that part, but nobody talked about the counseling part of it. Yeah. So, right. So I wrote the, the methadone.

[00:44:12] She’s not a genealogist and she’s done a little bit of genealogy. Um, so she’s not a genealogist. She’s done some for her family. She’s done some in client work. But that’s not her specialty. Right? Um, I’m a genealogist. My undergraduate degree is in human genetics. I understand it, but I don’t have the expertise she does from that point of view.

[00:44:38] So half the book is on research, methodology, genealogy aspects, and the other half of the book is on resources for people on what happens when a contact goes wrong. Um, some  and Foundling information, vary by state. She has a section in there on international adoptions and how you can work to find parents or using DNA for that.

[00:45:07] Um, so she really hit it above and beyond. I think with the. If, you know, if you are feeling these things, reach out to somebody, you know, um, here are some support groups that you might want to look into, you know, you realize you’re not alone, that type of thing. So I really think that the book filled a niche that, or at least a crack in the wall that hadn’t really been taken up by anybody else, because let’s be honest, genealogists, historians, even if we have a DNA degree doesn’t mean we know the emotional aspects of it, right? 

Terri: [00:45:43] It’s an important piece that was missing. 

David: [00:45:45] It really was. And I must say that I have seen your book and it’s great. And if anybody wants to know how to get a copy of your book besides Amazon.com, is there a website we should direct people to? 

Shannon: [00:45:56] There is so Brianne has a page off of her website. She’s found at Watershed DNA and it’s The DNA Guide for Adoptees. Um, you can go out there and find the book. And we, once we get our act together, there is a plan for a companion guide and maybe some quick, uh, guides, too. 

Terri: [00:46:16] Okay. 

Shannon: [00:46:17] When we both have time, 

Terri: [00:46:20] We understand that.

David: [00:46:22] Well, that is truly in a discovery to learn that a genealogist I know is also an amateur archeologist and it just goes to show Shannon, you can dig, even if it isn’t with a shovel, to find things. So that’s great. Well, I really I’m delighted to have you on and it’s, uh, besides being a colleague, you’ve been a longtime friend and I know Terri and I both appreciate you being here and, uh, thank you very much and we wish you well in your exploits and hopefully we’ll all get to see each other soon.

Shannon: [00:46:53] Yeah, that would be nice. 

Terri: [00:46:55] We definitely, we definitely appreciate you being our first guest and coming in really blind to what we were doing.

David: [00:47:05] Thank you for being here. Appreciate that shannon. 

Shannon: [00:47:07] Great, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. 

David: [00:47:09] That was a really great talking with Shannon. Uh, and I, it makes me want to go out and buy a drone. 

Terri: [00:47:15] I know, I thought as I was watching her pictures come across the screen was, um, in Ireland in the past few years, they’ve had droughts and they’ve been taking the drones out and you can see all the layers of history in the ground, because everything is just so dead. So I just thought it would be amazing to be flying a drone above all of that, to just really see what you can see underneath. 

David: [00:47:39] Yeah. And I’m sure that archeologists probably using drones more and more now. I mean, I know that amateur people can buy them now for a couple of hundred bucks and fly them up and, uh, see all sorts of things that you normally can’t see. And that’s true in England. They’re also using satellite photography, uh, and that’s revealing foundations, ancient ruins that are just kind of appearing out of the ground because the droughts, like you say, 

Terri: [00:48:07] Yeah, I, I won’t admit to, maybe we have one, but we haven’t used it. 

David: [00:48:14] There you go. Find any ancient ruins out in Chicago.

Terri: [00:48:20] You know, it was more of a thought for vacation. Like if you go someplace cool, like, you know. To put it up in the air, but the thing is, is there’s so many laws with it and you got to really look into that first.

David: [00:48:34] Yeah, that’s true because you can’t fly it at a certain altitude because you don’t want small planes to crash into them or vice versa.

Terri: [00:48:39] Exactly. I think it really is. You can’t fly it at all until you go through some kind of FCC, um, Online class or something. I don’t know. We bought it a couple of years ago, um, as a birthday gift and it’s, it’s still sitting there waiting for somebody to go through and do that. 

David: [00:48:55] We’ll have to put Virtual Historians on it with like, you know, like a banner. 

Terri: [00:49:00] Right 

David: [00:49:01] they can figure out where the first Virtual Historian drone flight will be. You’ll folks will have it live. 

Terri: [00:49:08] Okay. You know what I mean? We liked that new tech here. 

David: [00:49:12] True. That’s absolutely true. And speaking of new tech, we’re going to have Christine Woodcock on coming up real soon and we’ll be talking to her about what she does with Forever.

Terri: [00:49:23] That’d be a good talk too, 

David: [00:49:24] Definitely. Well, well until then, I’m going to be in the virtual world and looking forward to seeing you soon. Goodnight, Terri 

Terri: [00:49:32] Night.

We hope you enjoy the first episode.